Ray
12/09/2008

Wow, you just made some great examples that I have felt, but never have been able to put into words. I am from the U.S., and have been living in Spain for several years. I still have to force myself to be louder and more direct, or risk being accused of not having ‘dos huevos.’

Ray
12/09/2008

I’m currently in Benalmadena, near Malaga. I am married to a Spaniard; she is from Madrid. Someone, I assume to be a neighbor, has the habit of leaning up against my car, when talking to his friends. I find this behavior (touching someone else’s vehicle) to be extremely rude, but my wife says it’s really not a big deal, not even a ‘deal’ at all, and that if I ever see it again, I should even make a face, and definitely don’t say anything I am currently parking as far away from the hangout spot as possible, to avoid future situations. Also, my wife, as well as other Spanish women, has the habit of touching, picking up, holding babies / toddlers of parents we don’t even know. I am mistaken is saying that this would not be appropriate behavior outside of Spain? And it creeps me out when I see it happen here.

Tonya
12/09/2008

I understand what you are saying about the liguistic and cultural differences, but if I, as an American, need to learn to be loud and forceful when ordering a beer in Spain, then it seems to me that a Spaniard should learn to be quiet and “polite” when ordering a beer in the U.S. This is a problem. I have had Spanish visitors and have led Spanish tour groups here in California, and I have been embarassed by their boorish and demanding behavior. I have been expected to adjust to their ways, but they have refused to be courteous to tour bus drivers, retail clerks, restaurant wait staff. Sadly, after 3 years of doing this as a summer job, I have chosen to no longer work with groups from Spain. Although I am scheduled to take a group of American teenagers to Spain next spring, I am actually dreading it, based on several very negative experiences.

Matthew Bennett
24/09/2008

@Carlos Excellent comments! Thanks for taking the time to visit and leave your thoughts.  “Spanish people are friendly” might make another good post. Your example about Thai children is illustrative.

@Tonya: I agree that everybody should learn about new cultures but it really surprises me if you genuinely have that perception of Spanish people, especially in such a consistent manner over such a long period of time.  Whilst travelling in several other countries, I have never met an unfriendly Spaniard, whichever way you understand the idea of politeness.

I think the comments so far highlight the two cultures very different perceptions of the same ideas and why it’s always so important to listen and learn.

Carlos
25/09/2008

Fair enough. That was not the case the last time I looked. I hope it is nice and colourful and you wear it with pride. Just joking ;-)

Now try adding “very” to both expressions. In any case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

My point still stands: let’s try to understand each other better without rushing to conclusions.

Robert
07/10/2008

Hispanics are so cool, they really do benefit this country

ian
17/01/2009

hi,can anyone tell me if i was the rude /bad mannered person?i was brought up to be polite and if you wanted anything then ask and be polite. to cut a long story short. sitting in local bar when family of 1 came in parents about mid 40s boy about 10 due to lack of space down the other end of the bar they came instood next to me at teh very end of the bar. i never asked them or moved for them to make space as for them to eat tapas the father moves my beer and shoves my paper away and carries on as if nothing happened after trying to talk to him /he blanks me)
2-the bar owner was wrong in only pegging me down plus as the owner he could of asked me to move aswell this i have seen done before in the past. 3-should i go back to the bar and act as if nothing happened and if in the same sitaution again what do i do!! i await with suspense in any replies blw am 43 with a family i just like a couple hours 2 times a week in the bar read the papers and watch the news! thanks

Tonya
18/01/2009

I posted a few months ago, and I have the same opinion. The Spaniards have a superior air and sense of entitlement about them. And yes, they are rude and demanding, and completely unwilling to adapt to and learn from new situations. Hence, the genocide perpetrated by Spaniards against the indigenous people of Central and South America. The ultimate in forcing their elevated self-perception on others.

CNN+
21/01/2009

Sounds like the "idiotizing" is complete. My plans are near fruition, and soon every Spaniard will believe anything we publish, and we can finish turning them against their allies. Muah hah hah!

linnetwoods
18/02/2009

When I first lived in southern Spain, as the only foreigner in a small village, in 1990, and had mastered a reasonable amount of Spanish, I was quite taken aback when I asked a neighbour's 10-year-old if he would like an ice-cream and he merely shrugged in an exaggerated fashion.

Having established that he would, in fact, like an ice-cream and watched him consume it with evident delight, I went on my way and soon met another neighbour to whom I passed comment on the oddness of the child's initial reaction. My friend laughed and explained that the boy had been demonstrating the very best of manners by implying that he didn't mind whether I bought him an ice-cream or not, in case I couldn't really afford to and had just offered out of politeness!

Ángel Domínguez
18/02/2009

Hi Matthew,

I really enjoyed this post. I have to agree that Spanish people ARE LOUD; it's often hard to be able to maintain a conversation inside a café o a bar without screaming your lungs out. I for one find it really annoying, so I simply have breakfast at home whenever possible O:-)

Ashley
28/12/2009

This post is very, very interesting.  I was recently in Cadiz, Spain for a while and was certainly taken aback by many people’s mannerisms and airs of superiority they exuded. Honestly, I had no idea what to expect before I landed in Spain and am glad that my father had refrained from telling me about his negative perceptions of the Spanish. Once I observed, I came to my own coinclusions after ecountering discrimination from several Spanish locals. It is obvious they look down upon Latin Americans and I got into many discussions with locals who truly believed their Spanish language was the official Spanish language as opposed to the ‘Mexican Spanish that the illiterate Latinos speak’. I am American and of Guatemalan descent. Yes, I take offense to that. Yes, I think the Spanish I encountered were very rude and arrogant. And yet I hope that I was only unfortunate to have bumped into the racist pricks of Spain like some people might bump into the racist pricks here in the U.S. or in Guatemala. But to only have met two nice older ladies in my neighborhood in Spain? That number is pretty low…and stereotypes regarding the rudeness of the Spanish has to stem from somewhere right?

Carlos 2
07/01/2010

Human behaviour is a very complex issue, and manners are no exception: there are no absolute universals. All the more so if you are trying to draw any conclusions about 46 million people on the basis of a few personal experiences. I would advise anyone coming to Spain to try to shed any preconceptions and to be aware that cultural differences do account for many misunderstandings (sorry, but whoever thinks otherwise does not qualify, to my mind, as a keen observer of reality). Also, anyone visiting a foreign country tends to feel uncomfortably out of their depth, which may add a negative emotional filter to their perception. So, in a nutshell, be aware of these caveats, keep an open mind and you will very probably enjoy your experience in Spain. Having said all the above, I do agree that many of the experiences exposed in some of the previous posts do count as appalling examples of lack of empathy towards others, although, as a proud Spaniard, I cannot help feeling the need to protest that they can’t, by any stretch of the imagination, be used to describe a whole nation and that you could very easily find similar examples anywhere in the world. To give you an example that could be used for many of my ideas above, I have just spent my Christmas holidays in Scotland. I must sadly confess that I found many bar staff inexpressive, which many in Spain would construe as being plainly unfriendly, in spite of all their “pleases”, “thank-yous” and “enjoy-your-meals”. On one occasion I was sitting at a pub enjoying a couple of pints trying to explain/translate the breakfast menu to one of my Spanish friends when out of the blue came this waitress who all but snatched the menu from our hands with the blunt explanation of “sorry, guys, but we have stopped serving breakfast and are about to start serving lunch”. When I explained to her what I was trying to do and that we had no intention of ordering breakfast, she made no move to hand us back the menus. Luckily, I lived in Scotland for three years and my impression that the Scots are overall a charming “race” remains untouched. To abound a bit more on the issue of cultural differences and the often discussed use of “please” and “thank you”, as my mother puts it, full of common sense, in Spanish you are COMMONLY (although not at all exclusively, and I would advise foreigners to use them) expected to use those two expressions when you really mean them; otherwise to express friendliness you must use facial expression and tone of voice –more difficult to get the knack of. I would add to this that, if you want to add the element of polite distance or respect you must use the forms of “usted” instead of “tú” (which English lacks and must therefore compensate for). So, I insist: using “please” and “thank you” does not equal to being polite: as a Scottish friend of mine put it, “here it is not uncommon to find people elbowing their way through a crowd and feeling totally comfortable about it because they keep saying ‘sorry”. My apologies if I come across as confrontational. Believe me, my only intention is to open people’s eyes to the complexity of the issue. On a different front, as to the question whether we Spaniards are racist or not, please note that no extreme right party has ever held any sway on Spanish voters and that Spain is often criticized for being too lenient with illegal immigrants. I recognise that racism is a growing concern, especially considering the existence of some neo-nazi groups especially in big cities, but this does not set us apart from any other countries in the Western World. On the issue of South Americans, as a typical leftie I recognise that I feel a bit threatened by some of the aspects of their generally more (how put it without being offensive?) “traditional” mentality, which I risk saying is not uncommon among people of my political persuasion. Among some right-wing people, especially the working class, they are perceived as rivals when it comes to finding employment. Overall, though, I think they are reasonably well integrated. By the way, the notion that their Spanish is of an inferior quality to ours is ridiculously ethnocentric and ignorant. I hope my opinion helps.

Joe
16/01/2010

The title is a bit like the “is the pope catholic?” or “do gays like Barbra Streisand?” varieties.Of course they are or we wouldn´t be debating it.You won´t find so many other nationalities talking about it or the same question on  expat websites in other countries.The question is more what to do about it,mainly ignoring it is the best solution.I´ve been here,originally from London,over 20 years and it´s still a “topico”  that the Brits are all tea at 5(why not 4) ladies and gentleme.Of course the Spanish love topicos and asking if something is typical:the famous inferiority complex.I´ve read that Brits are rude in comparison to Japanese or Africans but most people are “shocked” by rudeness here,as commented re the notesfromspain,which strangely seems to be dead(I wonder why) about the metro.Get off the train with your suitcase and how many savages try to push through?Walk down the platform/corridor/street and how many are blocking your way and not instinctively moving aside?”Oh but we(always a collective “we”) aren´t very good at spacial awareness”.Or ,”Is it true English(not Londoners or people in London) people don´t like it when others stand on the left on the underground escalators?”.It´s not just Londoners,happens here too and increasingly so.I´ve had South American friends who have been told by family or friends that they have become almost Spanish,ie rough and rude. Of course,such a topico means not everyone is the same but……

Carlos 2
17/01/2010

“Of course they are or we wouldn´t be debating it” Of course, Joe, impecable logic: everything ever debated must necessarity be true…Examples include “Are black people less intelligent?”, “Are English people snobbish and distant?” “The Holocaust never happened.” One cannot but agree with you… Now, you cannot be serious…      

Carlos 2
18/01/2010

Joe, My reply was not hysterical at all (a bit hasty perhaps, as I was expected for dinner), and if it was irony you were trying to transmit, well, my opinion is that it wasn’t a good attempt at all, sorry to tell you. What you have in turn transmitted in your reply was your blanket  perception of the Spanish (and I suppose USAtian) sense of humour (how sad, incapable of perceiving irony!) and  the, according to you, snobby nature of madrileños etc. (or is there irony somewhere there too that I have been too blind to see?), just as you have transmitted other gross overgeneralisations in your post before, however tentatively qualified. As for my bringing in “unnecessary racism re black people or the Holocaust”, if you look in any dictionary for a definition of “irony”, you will find that usually the first entry reads “the use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning”. As it was clear from the context, the vast majority of people reading my post would detect straightaway that the list of “debatable” statements I mentioned was as ludicrous as the blanket generalisation “Spanish people are rude.” Now, that was as fine an example of irony as can be. I do not regard British people as distant or snobbish (that was, again, ironic), which I assure you I often try to explain to those who have fallen prey to that cliché (an no, we Spanish people are not more fond of clichés than any other nations): “they just have a different culture”, I keep sayin; so no need for your “counterattack” regarding Madrileños, 600 km away from where I live, by the way. I will refrain from using an unfriendly adjective to describe your reaction here. The other day I was in a pub enjoying a drink with a couple of friends when an acquaintance of one fo them from Glasgow walked  in. When this friend mentioned to the Glaswegian “gentleman” that I was just back from Edinburgh, perhaps trying to start a conversation between him and me, he said in broken Spanish “Edinburgh es mierda (shit), Glasgow es como Madrid blah, blah”. I could mention countless examples of British people being rude when I was living in the UK, but I could see through it, and I know the majority are not like that. As for “Glasgow is like Madrid”, here is perhaps one of the keys that would explain your perceptions of a big city like Madrid: the aggressive character of life (people?) in large cities. Someone’s experiences in a metropolis in the rush hour are not perhaps the most representative examples of the behaviour of the nationals of the country where that city is. Your having selected them gives your opininon an unfair skew. And, yes, you are right. We do not normally share tables with strangers. It is one more cultural thing: we feel uncomfortable staying quiet with someone sitting next to us and even more uncomfortable trying to think of things to talk about. As to “autocriticar” (seflcriticism), any decent human being -as we Spaniards mostly are- is humble enough to recognise defects in themselves or their fellow countryfolks, and I of course concede that Spain is by no means a perfect country, just quite a pleasant one in general terms. That must not be confused with having to take unfair criticism lying down, and sorry if I am not so “open-minded” as you or your “informants” appear to be. Sorry, but I had to confront too many prejudices and stereotypes about Spain and Spaniards when I was living in the UK, some seeming to date from as far back as the old Imperial squabbles. And, you should not have mentioned the word “expat”: it is too revealing… I won’t say more. Peace.                

Carlos 2
18/01/2010

Joe, I quote “Carlos (…)likes to get the last word.” Congratulations, you’ve just hit the nail bang on the head. And I would like to add, “especially when I am right”. And, by the way, the problem with your last reasoning here is that nationalities are nothing but the sum of different people, plus Spanish people, as a whole, cannot be defined as rude, quite on the contrary, we tend to be quite friendly (two incompatible things). There is no such thing as a “rude nationality” unless you could 1) first define unequivocally what constitutes rudeness and 2) if you could demonstrate it as empirically as possible through sociological research, not through limited, skewed experiences possibly tinted by your attitude or lack of adaptation, or just because you’ve had a bad day. No, being an expat is obviously not a problem, but living in a typical inward-looking expat community could be.  

Tonya
13/02/2010

Amazing!! I feel totally vindicated! I commented over two years about the extreme rudeness and boorishness of Spaniards, and was rebuffed.

Carlos 2
15/02/2010

Stan, as for your experience in that bar, I don’t need to clutch at a straw here at all as I’m not in the habit of justifying blatantly rude behaviour. If that is the way you interpreted my contributions to this forum, then I can only say that you missed the point I made altogether. I have never argued either that Spain was an idyllic country blissfully free of rude people (please read my former posts), as you’ll agree is the case with any other country you could think of. What’s more, the way you and your girlfriend reacted is what you would expect from anyone civilized with a minimum of self-respect. Just a pointer for the future, for you or anyone who reads this: Spanish businesses dealing with the public (providing both goods and/or services and including bars and restaurants, obviously) are legally required to have customer complaint forms that they have to make available on request (you can even resort to calling the police if they don’t) and they should be used whenever appropriate, for everyone’s benefit. If you are interested, you could read about it at http://gospain.about.com/od/shopping/qt/complaints.htm. However -and these are not the words of a desperately Chauvinistic chap prepared to distort reality for the further glory of his fatherland, believe me- I can safely affirm that I cannot remember a single occasion when I was treated like you say you were in the more than 30 years I have lived here. OK, perhaps a vague recollection from the distant past, but I couldn’t even tell you where and when; and yes, I’ve been three times to Catalonia (Eng)/Cataluña (Sp)/Catalunya (Cat). I can also assure you, in case there is any doubt, that I’m not a reclusive hermit. In fact, I’ve been to (let me count) three restaurants, three cafés and stayed in a hotel over this past week-end and the staff were really helpful and efficient -It may sound that I’m making it up for the occasion, but I’m not. I even had a pleasant chat with a barmaid about how wrong it is to serve alcohol to adolescents. And, finally, if you were wondering, I sadly have not got enough charm to have everyone at my feet, just someone ordinary. After reading your comments, one would be tempted to conclude that the nearly 50 million people who visit Spain every year are terribly misled or irredeemably masochistic, and that it is a mystery among mysteries how the hospitality and catering businesses Spain is teeming with manage to survive. Numbers speak for themselves here, as speak the number of hits when you Google for “Spanish people are friendly” versus “Spanish people are rude.” Finally, I’m sorry that you have had such an unpleasant experience of Spain. If the people in the village where you live really are like you describe them, you are probably very wise to move out of there. In contrast, I live in a rural area and am showered with gifts and attentions from my neighbours in the form of vegetables, poultry, eggs, firewood etc. Mind, you, I also help them collect their crops of maize and potatoes. I suppose it is a matter of getting the best out of people and knowing how to adapt best. Tonya, you were not rebuffed, you were rebutted. There is a clear difference. The problem with this forum is that its title attracts many disgruntled people who have gone through bad experiences, so I’m giving up writing again in the belief that the posts here are not representative of the general perception of Spaniards abroad. I’ll just make a small concession here: when driving back home though the city where I spent my weekend, I was scandalised at the way people drive totally regardless of the elemental rules of civility. No, Spain is not heaven on earth. I’m now writing after consulting road fatality statistics on the Net, which you will agree is the most reliable indicator of good or bad driving. Well, in fact I’ve discovered that the number of accidents on Spanish roads has decreased dramatically in the past couple of years, and in 2008 fatalities per million inhabitants reached a medium level slightly above those in Ireland and Finland and slightly below France and Denmark (hardly categorised as “uncivilised” countries). Now, if I had drawn any conclusions from my own personal experience when driving earlier today and had allowed myself to be carried away by my own frustration or rather, (I assure you) sheer indignation, I would have derived that we Spaniards are horribly bad drivers, when actually official European statistics prove we are not. I hope there existed such statistics about rudeness. I’ll say no more.

Carlos 2
16/02/2010

Stan: I’m glad I’ve given you so many opportunities to feel superior and exercise your laughing muscles. I hope it makes you feel better and helps you forget your traumatic experience in Spain. Thank you too for your wise and moderate discourse on how nice English people are in contrast with Spaniards. I feel overwhelmed by a rediscovered feeling of humbleness, as you have shown me the right path. As for rudeness, now I know thanks to you that using the words “shit” and “frigging” is the epitome of fine English manners, courteous and rational (because of course, you would not be so unwise as to point out a defect in others that you give clear signs of yourself), but you will have to forgive me if I choose not to use them. Having said that, I’m sorry, but I fail to understand at which point I have corrected you directly or what the connection is between explaining to potential readers what the three versions of the name “Catalonia” are and jumping desperately on a high moral horse. Would you be so kind to enlighten me on this matter? Perhaps I was too rude to teachers at school during philosophy classes to give them time to explain to me that line of logic. Now, seriously, and I quote: “The point that you don’t want to accept is that in this country rudeness and foul customer service is way more obvious and present than elsewhere.” Yes, you’re absolutely right. That is the point indeed, and allow me to insist: they are definitely not. I’ll tell you why: your experience of people in Spain is very different from my own. You forget as well that I have lived in your country and, surprise, surprise, my speech was also corrected, once by some thugs calling me “cunt” when I had tried to say “can’t”, for instance. Not only that, I had people calling one of my friends “a half-caste” and others suggesting I must be the product of a night-stand between a northern European and a Spanish woman of relaxed morals because I did not look swarthy enough to them. I have a long list, but I don’t want to bore readers. As for customer service, once a barman nearly hit me because I had not put up my index and middle fingers the British way (it was my first visit to England) when asking him for too pints in a noisy pub. Do you really want me to continue? Those examples are not really my “pièce de résistance”. The thing is that I seem to be more able to see the general picture than you are (I love British people) and better at coping with frustration or antagonism. And yes, that was patronising; not exactly “nice” but much better than having a short fuse.

“As for “the masochistic” millions of people who visit Spain, as you put it, it may have something to do with decades of incredibly low prices. Amazing how this simple fact eluded you!” No, Stan, I’m aware of that. It is you who do not realise that prices have gone up and hordes of British people keep coming over not only to spend their holidays, but to stay. Also, there have always been cheaper, sunnier places and that you seem to be one of the comparatively few discordant voices that have that opinion.   Finally, I feel that I have made some interesting points you have failed to comment on which were more central to the issue at point…   Greetings from Spain.

Smee McPhee
16/02/2010

I want to add my customer service woes, but I’m too furious at the moment, and it is a telecom, vodafone.es – so maybe not fair – but also, yes, fair.  Just too angry right now. Off-topic note of medium importance:  When comparing traffic statistics – always be sure to find the ones listed as “Incidents-per-distance-travelled” or “fatalities-per-km-travelled-per-capita” – not just per capita.  Spain has made great strides in both per-capita and per-distance-per-capita, but still trails somewhat behind – in per-distance-per-capita.  

Stan
16/02/2010

Carlos2, the difference between you and me is that I can take it. I’ll be the first one to acknowledge, without any “yes…but”, arguing of the toss,  and straw-clutching that most Brits are notorious for many things: the pathetic way they can’t deal with alcohol, the post-colonial complex (ie the revolting word ‘expat’ applied to themselves while the others are  ‘immigrants’), the ignorant stick-to-our-own ‘hooligan-like’ way many invade places a-la Benidorm or Lloret <i>expecting</i> everything to be British or British-speaking. I would not engage in any futile “yes, but also others”, because it is all true. I think the British are particularly bad at the stuff I’ve just described. You’re not talking to a Little Englander here, I’m afraid. But you simply cannot admit it that when it comes to selfishness, manners and customer service (the latter two directly related), too many Catalans (it would be presumptious for me to refer to ‘Spaniards’ as a whole)  seem to have drawn the short straw. It simply is appalling. At all levels. From utility companies (again, I’ve had bad experiences in 30 years in Britain too, but in almost 3 years in Catalunya the number is already the same), to shops, estate agencies, neighbours, restaurants and business establishments in general. You keep saying that you haven’t experienced the things I described, but could it just be because – being from here- you see things through a different perspective? The same way, say, I could safely tell you that no-one ever corrected me back in the UK while I was speaking? Final point. Yes, we all know Spain is no longer as cheap as it used to be. But it still is cheaper than Britain. Obviously the influx of “por favores” died down since the crisis kicked off, but there’s a type of unadventurous Brit who, over Italy and Greece, would still pick certain areas of Spain where they already cater for English-speaking people.

Stan
17/02/2010

To say that customer service is generally (very) bad quality in a country is not to be prejudiced, Carlos 2. Customer service is an area that takes decades to develop, and in this specific one, the Spanish have a lot of improvements to make. I’m sorry if it sounds brutal, but it’s true. I’ve travelled a lot and, like I mentioned, I <i>lived</i> in 3 other countries. I’ll be the first one to tell you that Spain has improved or even overtaken other countries in a lot of other areas. Transport, for instance. Roads. Health. Truly impressive. Your health system can piss all over the NHS. But customer service is simply not your forte. Maybe not yet, but -as it is- it leaves a lot to be desired.

And don’t confuse plain facts with prejudice. I can say that trains in the UK are overpriced and suck or that drink-fuelled violence is worringly frequent. Would you say that’s prejudiced? I can say that driving and double parking in Italy is all over the place to say the least. Would you just put it down to my “prejudices”? So as to rudeness/customer service, I’m afraid you really seem to be in denial. And the fact you chose to hide behind the grand word  “prejudice” corroborates this impression. It actually smacks of desperation. I mentioned earlier I am a TEFL teacher in Catalonia. Many a time we had lessons centred around the use of so-called “ceremonial” expressions in English such as “would you mind”, “sorry”, “pardon”, “could you please”, “do you mind if…” etc. How come all- and I mean ALL- of my students are always bemused? Comments range from a sneering “Oh god you British are so artificial” to an impressed “wow that’s quite a complex way of asking for things”, etc. However, please believe me, they ALL confirmed that in this country, for instance, if your way is blocked (in the street or in a supermarket aisle, etc), you would only say “perdona!” as a last resort, when it really is impossible to elbow your way through. Just hop to Mercadona and tell me how many members of staff apologise after stamping on your foot with their load carrier. One comment from a student really stuck with me. He said that, generally, in new situations, people here are subconsciously on a mission not to appear “weak”. And, his words, if you apologise too much, if you use ceremonial language or appear too soft in a new situation, you may be perceived  as “weak” or “wet” – hence the seemingly hard-nosed behaviour with people you don’t know very well. I’ve seen it with my colleagues. When a brand new so-called ‘native teacher’ (from the UK or the US, etc) is introduced to his new colleagues in the staff room they tend to be more like “Hi everyone!!! My name is… Nice to meet you. Where are you from…etc”. The local teachers rarely go beyond a nod and a grunt. Sure, within a few weeks they will gradually open up and be generally nice. But their initial behaviour appears in line with what my student said about “not wanting to be perceived as wet” in an unfamiliar environment. Now, while this is a cultural trait (and nothing wrong with it- it’s your country and you do what you want with it), the other side of the coin is reflected upon customer service, an area in which such behaviour really becomes grating. I’ve never ever set foot in a restaurant/cafe’/pub in Britain, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, etc and being asked “que quieres!”, “what-do-you-want”, in a really blunt tone of voice. Here it’s happened a few times. Not always, but a fair few times. Now, bear with me. If all waiters did it, then it would be obviously purely a cultural trait, nothing more nothing less, end of the story. But the fact that some restaurants or bars can manage to say “are you ready to order”, “can I take your order”, or something slightly more polite, clearly indicates that those who come up to your table huffing a  “que quieres” are indeed being rude or haven’t been trained properly. How this is being prejudiced, Carlos 2, I don’t know. It could be that shop assistants, waiters or cashiers in Catalonia/Spain  instinctively believe that being overly polite is tantamount to being “subservient”. I don’t know. Another example. Refunds. Anywhere in the UK you can return a product, whether faulty or the wrong size or other. Provided you have your receipt with you- you get your money back, no questions asked. In Spain, with the partial exception of El Corte Ingles,  this doesn’t happen anywhere. At best they tell you they can exchange it, but thats it. And the law is on their side, further evidence that customer service in Espana still has a long way to go. Another one of my students, a manager who travels all the time, was remarking on how common it is in the UK or the US to be offered free wine or a free dessert if you’ve waited too long or if you’ve been served the wrong dish, etc. “Here in Spain you have to argue for it”, he commented. And, with all the goodwill in the world,  I couldn’t disagree with him. In short, if you simply deny that customer care in Britain vs. in Spain is the same, then you also probably think that Xerez are still in with a chance of winning this year’s Primera Liga.

Carlos 2
18/02/2010

Corrections: “Liverpudlians” and “Derby”

Carlos 2
28/02/2010

Martha Isela: Character and rudeness are two different things. It is possible that you might have inhereted the former from your great-great-grandmother, but the latter has more to do with the way you have been brought up and what you perceive as correct and incorrect behaviour. I think you run a risk here: if you put your actions down to this inescapable connexion with your distant ancestor, you will probably enter in conflict with your husband much more often than if you discuss these issues calmly with him and try to adapt to the culture you now live in. Ahí queda mi consejo por si quieres usarlo. Saludos desde España donde, por cierto, hay mucha gente muy calmada y paciente por mucho que se nos intente colgar el “sambenito” de ser “fiery latinos.”  

Basurto319
12/07/2010

I just visisted madrid and found people to be very rude and discriminitory. My parents are from Mexico and I speak fluent Spanish. I was looked down upon and treated like an illegal immigrant in their country and was even offered a job taking care of someone; I was a tourist!!! We were fine until we spoke Spanish and they heard our lack of Spanish accent. After a while we only spoke English and had a little more respect.

Eire
17/08/2010

@Tonya: Your post just shows you need to learn many things yet…

Ed
11/04/2011

rude is only the start. I saw my daughter almost shoved over when walking on the sidwalk. I was constantly pushed just walking on the sidewalk also. Very weird behavior by these people. But by the end of my trip it was great because I was shoving spanish people around just like they shoved me around at the start of our vacation. I am living Chicago and been to NYC and never had to push people around before. My neice that was studying in Barcelona was shoved to the ground and finally had to admit that the Spanish were the rudest people she ever met.

We also tried to buy shoes for my daughter. The salesman came back with a shoe for a man in a different style. He laughed at us and we laughed back as we left the store.

It was great that every hotel had security guards as we found out that there is alot of theft in Spain!! Fun vacation, as I had my wallet stolen and had to chase down the three Spaniards to get it back. You should have seen the look on thier faces when I cornered them and demanded my wallet back.

We have travelled to various european countries and found it sad that Spain was the dump of Europe.

Alvaro
14/07/2011

Hello everyone!

First of all, sorry for any bad english I can use in my text. I am spaniard from Madrid and I have found really interesting this article on the net. As being born in Spain and used to the manners that I say, use and see day by day here (and i refer almost just to Madrid area) I can agree that some ways of being here are or can be taken as rude for anyone “as we say here” not from here (no de aquí). Why? ecause people usually try to filter anything under they culture and manners. It is like when i visited the Netherlands for the first time and a girl i knew from months before by the net when i saw her in person for the first time just shaked my hand. Was the first time in my life a girl shaked my hand as a greeting instead of giving me two kisses but the point is that i accepted that as her manner or something typical in the Netherlands (days after that, when we get closer in meetings and all that I happily received each time three kisses as greeting).

What i mainly mean is that instead of make a critic about the culture, try to understand it. All have a reason of being in that way. We open until late in the evening, why? Be a full summer here at Spain and think about open a shop during the time between 2pm and 5 pm and you will think twice about it.

“We talk like order”. It is true, the sentences we usually make when we deal with business like bars, shops and that kind of is in imperative way. But as i think i have read above, the way you say it implies many differences. “capullo” (asshole) here in spain can be used depending on the way you say it as an insult or just like a funny, even kidding way to refer to someone (“Qué capullo Antonio que ha ganado la lotería” is similar to “How lucky Antonio was winning the lottery”).

“Thanks and please”. We Spanish people like (I remember refearing to Madrid and all my experiences in my 23 years of life being here) to really mean when you have to apologize or be grateful, not as a machine which say that each time an specific situation happens. It is common to hear “gracias” when the waiter gives you your drink and you are thirsty but for example I have usually never heard about it in a Disco when you ask for a drink, in my mind, searching for a reason I found that well… after all you are giving them a lot of money for the drink, they must be the grateful ones for having you as customer. Sounds weird but I have talked about it with some friends and sometimes that can be a reason.

“Showing interest”. I set this point because of my own experiences with it. I have many memories of asking north european people things and they tired of replying, sometimes wondering why we ask too much or why are we trying to know things “non of our business”. Well, the reason is clear for me as maybe it will be for many spaniards here: Because we have interest on you and we appreciate you. A spaniard will never ask anything a person they dislike to talk to but if you are a friend, if you are important, they will ask you about your day, friends, family, health, weather, etc… because that is a way of being kind here. Here in Spain is it sometimes not nice to meet people which never ask you about your life, your family or your problems. We like social meetings and enjoy talking about it.

After all the long speech i say sorry for maybe keeping much time from you all and hope I would use the correct way of writting for showing that I am not saying anything for or against what you all have said here.

What I seriously mean is that before charging against manners or customs that are different from yours, try to understand it and why it is that way, there is no perfect country/culture/etc…

If you want to know more about Spain or spanish manners from a point of view of someone from Madrid who have travelled to Netherlands several times, UK and Italy and is always curious, notice me.

Greetings to you all.

(And sorry, hope not, if anyone got offended or similar)

Jacobo
26/07/2011

Northern Europeans and people from the US tend to think their way is the only acceptable way, and I don’t understand why. I understand you to demand politeness in the british way while in the UK. Why can’t I demand politeness in the spanish way while being in MY own country? I’m not going to change just because you don’t like our behaviour; what did you expected when you came here, us spaniards to throw rose petals at you, the white, not-tanned and TRUE european (not like us, filthy mediterranean charred-skinned spaniards who love killing bulls) just because you have chosen our country and graced it with your presence? Please, you don’t know how germans and british behave here in Spain. Politeness? HA, they must leave it in the frontiers. Go one day to Majorca and see the hundred drunk germans laid in the streets with a huge hangover, so clean and serious in Germany, so drunk and pathetic here in Spain. Oh, yes, but they order the thousand beers they drink saying “please, could i have a beer?”, so they are rightful members of the western civilization. Cheers.

You expect us to be folkloric, but yet modern and civilized (in your way, OF COURSE); You want loads of fiesta, but you reproach us our laziness. You want good weather but rant EVERY TIME about the terrible heat. You think of us as a cozy, eccentric rural country (if not as a holiday resort) and treat us as if you were a 19th century colonizer meeting some native inhabitants of the jungle, teaching them how to be polite and the ways of the civilized people, but YET complain about us not wanting to mix up with you (and wonder why we react so bad at you realizing everybody in this world talks and understands perfect english). Treat us as equals for once and see if we turn more “friendly”, but we’re not made for fulfilling your wildest dreams about the perfect holidays in the land of the eternal sun. Stop behaving like REAL PRICKS with us. We’re so tired of us being looked down in our own country that we have already a bad disposition against anglophone/german tourists in general; it’s unfair for the huge majority, the friendly ones, but it’s up to you to change that misconception.

And if you can’t stand people talking 5 centimeters closer to you than you’re used to (OH MY GOD, SACRILEGE, HERESY) or people talking 10db louder than your mom and neighbors do, or timetables being different here, well, just stay in your country and that’s all. But if you come here, be prepared for some slight differences (that, of course, will be apalling and dreadful for you, though being just slightly different ways to behave and to handle life, but that applies for everyone in every country who travels abroad anyway) put your best face on, and don’t sweat the small stuff.

Adrian
09/08/2011

Hello, I’m from Spain. I read your comments, and… loudness‘ or ‘rudeness?? Have you seen any Spanish doing balconing?? Killin himself while jump and laught over 15 meter in the air?? I think that it’s impossible. Have you seen any Spanish fighting with the law because he was drink 10 beers??. I don’t know what you spect, when you come to Spain. But I’m really offendended. We think that the Anglo Saxon people like English or American, could be very polite in his country, but think that in our country could do anithing wich pass for his imagination and it’s wrong. Be carefull with te Beer, and the balconing. And i’m sorry, we don’t think that the english people are snobbish. We think the English people live in the pub’s drinking beer all day, and collect souvenirs of the Queen and the Royal Family. oh, i forget it, always wear in summer slippers with socks, please, don’t do it, are terrible. And don’t forget use sunblock cream?? Sunburst cream?? Crema para el sol. Because it’s very bad for your flesh the mediterranian sun. Thanks. And don’t forguet it, we always be friends, but the friends don’t disturb in his friends house. I hope not to be very rudeness in my coment, but the shortest distance into two points are the straight line.

clara
14/09/2011

im spanish but live in the uk and at first i used to get called rude a lot in school i was actually known as the ‘rude’ girl in secondary school and i never knew why because i’ve always acted in a manner which i think is pretty normal. Also in Spain british people or just foreigners from english peaking countries are called ‘cold people’ because to us they seem stand-offish and just kind of not friendly or approachable at all. by the way i resolved the ‘ rude girl’ issue by being OVERLY polite , now im a bit of a bumlick -_-

Viajera
15/10/2011

You know, I don’t know about the Spanish, but their heritage is really strong in Latin America and what I find the most frustrating as an American ex-pat who has been living overseas for years, interacts with the local community and learns the local languages is that no matter what you do, at some point you will be treated like you’re an idiot by someone working in a cafe or a local shop. It’s worse in touristy areas, but happens everywhere. That and the image that all people from the U.S. are walking wallets and that women from the U.S. are easy and will be sugar mamas for the Latin dudes. After being harassed on the street by the dudes, hit on by the same dude that just talked down to me and being groped in taxis and on buses, I have to say we need to consider, worldwide, just what it means to adapt to other cultures and how to address such egregious stereotypes and discrimination. There’s always an uproar in the U.S. about the massive discrimination against Hispanics — and there is … look at the new laws in Arizona, Florida, Virginia, and, the worst, Alabama. But let’s not forget just how strong the discrimination is against us when we go to their countries. This works both ways.

felix
26/10/2011

PART 2. HEY, YOU IGNORANT AMERICAN! IN SPAIN WE A FULL OF IMMIGRANTS LIKE YOU WHO CALL THEMSELVES EXPATS. IN FACT WE HAVE ON THE THE LARGEST IMMIGRANT COMMUNITES IN THE WORLD AND MOST OF THEM WILL THE HELL STAY IN SPAIN NO MATTER WHAT! SPAIN RECEIVES MILLIONS OF TOURISTS EVERY YEAR, BEING THE SENCOND TOURIST DESTINATION IN THE WOLD, AND THEY WILL CONTINUE TO COME HERE NO MATTER WHAT! AND SPAIN IS IN EUROPE! AND WE ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS IN THE US! WE ARE MUCH BETTER OFF IN SPAIN, WHERE INFANT MORTALITY OR LIFE EXPECTANCY, TWO OF THE MOST IMPORTANT INDICATORS OF A CIVILIZED COUNTRY ARE MUCH BETTER THAN IN YOUR US. HOW CAN SOMEONE BE SO STUPID! WELL A RESULT OF THE AMERICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM I GUESS.

felix
26/10/2011

IN SHORT, STAY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE OCEAN BECAUSE I THINK YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHERE THE MOON IS.

Viajera
26/10/2011

Actually, nothing was said above about Spain. It was strictly about personal experiences in Latin America, which you might notice if you had read through the posting completely. And there’s no need to resort to name calling because there was no name calling in the former post. You might also like to note that that use of the word Hispanic is very wide in the United States and you might like to take a look at some of the studies by the Pew Hispanic Center which say that by the year 2025, 25% of the population in the U.S. will be composed of Hispanics, which means those that speak Spanish. And while that does include people from Spain, the majority of Hispanic immigrants in the U.S. come from Latin American countries for all of the reaasons you say: high mortality rates, poor health, lack of work, and the search for a better life. There is also a difference between and expat and an immigrant. An immigrant, by definition, has moved permanently to a new country from their country of origin and an expat has not made a permanent move to another country, at least by definition. Also, when talking about discrimination and racism, that applies in all countries and even within countries. How many regional differences are there in a country and how many people automatically talk down to or stereotype someone who is from a different place, be it another city, another region or another country? The plain fact is that in the U.S., people discriminate. Period. And in Latin America, in the countries I’ve been to, people discriminate. Period. I don’t say anything about Spain because I haven’t been there and never did say I had. You might want to consider moderating your tone because your posting sounds a lot like what a belligerent American would post. Or a belligerent person in general. Just because you’re online and can’t see who you’re talking to doesn’t mean you should drop all semblance of courtesy and respect.

felix
26/10/2011

Any way, going bac to the subject matter of this thread I have to say that we, Spaniards, we indeed more rude than most other peoples. Why? I do not know, but it is a fact. Maybe we are more direct, energetic, self-confdent, however you want to put it, have we tend to be what most other people would consider on the rude side. On the other hand, and I know Latin America, and although this issue has been brought up, I have to say tha tto simply Latin Amerian can only be the conclusion of an ignorant. Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Peruvians or Argentinians live thousands of miles apart and are indeed very different as peoples. Still, most Latin Americans I have met are much better well-mannered than Spaniards, tend to sear a lot less and a log etc. Infact, interesting as it may been, Latin Americans, as different as Equadorians and Uruguayans actuyally are, are probably more well mannered than most people on Earth. There you have it, the opposite of Spaniards.

Viajera
27/10/2011

Never said the U.S. wasn’t part of America. And having been in several Latin American countries, I can tell you that while the individual cultures may be different, many of the customs and ways of interacting are the same. I also never lumped Spain together with other European countries. As a matter of fact, I didn’t say anything about other European countries, but I did see you say something disparaging about British people and when you did that you, you lumped all of the people from the United Kingdom together. There are several countries in the United Kingdom and each one is very different, although they might share a common history. It pays to think about what you’re saying when you start flinging insults around. You can’t tell someone else not to generalize when that is exactly what you’re doing yourself.

No one jumped to conclusions about a non-existent world either. What non-existent world would that be exactly? It appears that instead of actually reading what I wrote and being able to hold a respectful conversation, you jump immediately to attacking someone you don’t even know. And you may talk about these other places, but have you been there? Have you been there as a Caucasian American from the U.S.? Or a black American? Or a United States citizen with Mexican immigrant parents? Or as a woman? Doubtful. All of these factors change the experience a person has in another country. Or are you basing your information on people who have moved to your country from these places? They are also very different from the people who stay in the country and never have a chance to leave. More generalizations and stereotypes from you without any actual facts to back up what you’re saying. Más estereotipos y generalizaciones de tu parte sin pensar. Qué fantástico. Bien hecho, hombre.

Also, you can use the excuses of being more energetic, direct, self-confident or less hypocritical to justify, in your words, the act of Spaniards being rude. By that reasoning, then, people from the United States who travel to other countries could be considered, in general, more energetic, direct, self-confident, and less hypocritical too ….

Y puedes decir que tu manera de hablar o escribir es debido a tu cultura o puedes tomar responsabilidad personal por tus acciones y palabras. Es tu elección. Buena suerte.

Michael
27/10/2011

My wife and I are currently traveling through Spain and initially thought we would spend 7 weeks on a food, wine and culture cruise. It will now be 3 weeks in Spain and 4 weeks somewhere where there is respect for tourists. Tourists probably make up a large percentage of whatever is left of the Spanish economy.. If you like cheap cuts of meat, a few olives and some bits of cheese stuck to bread and call that Tapas then good luck. We have had 15 evenings in Spain, sometimes visiting three restaurants or bars looking for something edible and of restaurant standard. We have had only 5 decent meals and these came from just 2 restaurants. We went bak to these for the simple fact of decent service, decent food and no Spanish attitude. Ripping off the people who are supplying a huge amount to their economy is simply dumb. Looking forward to the Spanish economic meltdown and watching them regret shitting on their only possible salavation.

Viajera
28/10/2011

Hi Carlos,

Fair point. This is a posting about Spaniards, not about the customs of people in other Spanish-speaking countries, such as Argentina or Nicaragua, for instance. And I can see that you may not like the term Hispanic for being an umbrella term, but it is a common term in academic circles, it is used quite frequently in sociological and anthropological studies and it does address all of the countries where the mother tongue is Spanish, which includes Spain, which as you say, probably doesn’t make sense given the geographical and cultural distance between Spain and other Spanish-speaking countries. But if you are doing these types of studies, you do have to delineate somehow in order to do the research. That’s why many of these studies are lacking. There’s just no way to categorize and generalize in a way to captures all of the nuances of a situation or culture. However, these types of demographic and sociological studies can help create excellent programs and plans to address economic, social and political problems in specific areas. The question is how to cut up the cake.

That said, there are quite a few people around the world who lump all people from English speaking countries together as well, as if to say that British people, Canadians, people from the United States and South Africans are all the same, which is definitely not true. You can’t even lump together everyone in the United States because we have 50 different states and a person born and raised in New York may have very different ideas than someone from St. Louis, Missouri, or someone from Los Angeles. The country also houses a vast array of people whose parents are from other countries or who come from a diverse ethnic background. No two people in the U.S. alike in the same way that no two people anywhere are alike.

I’ve also heard quite a few bashing of people from the United States in several other countries where I have traveled and lived, but that bashing and stereotyping doesn’t address the fact that most of the people in the U.S. do not travel and do not live in other countries and that those very badly mannered tourists from the U.S. who do go to other countries and treat the local residents very badly do not in any way represent all of us.

I will stand by my statement that there is a lot of Spanish influence in the Latin American countries I have been in and, yes, there are some shared ways of talking and some shared customs. There are also quite a few Spaniards who live in and work in these countries today, so there are also modern Spanish influences. And there are also modern Spanish habits and customs in some areas. Are they the same as in Spain itself? Who knows? Probably not. No one person or group of people can represent an entire country.

Felix … your comments are increasingly insulting and all about semantics. I didn’t make up these terms. They are academic and legal terms used in the United States and in other countries to describe a country’s inhabitants. Caucasian, in the U.S., refers to ethnic heritage and not to skin color. And it is used in studies that the government and that universities do on diversity, sociological issues and anthropological histories. You can talk all you want about the semantics of the terms, but you’re just looking to sling insults at other people. So far you have disparaged people from the U.S. and from the United Kingdom and accused us of poisoning other cultures. You’ve also compared the people from my country to Hitler. If you really feel that way, why are you reading a blog written by someone from northwest England? Because you could really make the argument that the U.S. culture is based on English culture and so all the bad in it stems from that. If you’re going to reach for historical contexts that don’t actually apply these days. Also, I personally spend little time talking about race except when I make the mistake of commenting online, something I generally try to avoid due to people such as yourself who are just looking to flame and not to have a conversation.

Michael … that was unnecessary. There are customer service problems everywhere. It’s not limited to touristy areas or other countries and probably has something to do with the pitiful wages that the people who work in restaurants and cafes make. They usually earn barely enough to even get by, regardless of the country or town where they work. The situation is worse in touristy areas, where the living expenses shoot up so high that local residents hardly make enough to live there anymore.

Tonya
28/10/2011

I have purposely kept my tourist and consumer dollars, as well as my presence, away from Spain because of the extreme rudeness and outright belligerence of the people. So, Spaniards, hang on to that pride and stubborness while your economy tanks because you chase the people with dollars to spend away.

Viajera
29/10/2011

Once again feliz would like to argue semantics. To be clear, I was speaking of people who are from countries whose mother tongue is English. That is a technical definition and one that is used internationally.

Eres un excelente ejemplo de exactamente el tipo de racista que dices que no te gusta. Y atacas a otras personas, pero nunca respondes a preguntas directamente. No respondiste a mis preguntas sobre si has estado en estos otros países o conoces gente de allí. Así que es obvio que no tienes ninguna experiencia directa con otras culturas y ni una idea sobre la realidad de otros países o personas Claro, puedes hablar de España, tu país, pero cuanto más que hablas sobre eso, el peor la imagen de los españoles. Si yo fuera una racista como vos, diría que los españoles son racistas y belicosos. Sin embargo, a diferencia de vos, no soy racista y no atacan a la gente para sus nacionalidades y etnias, ni argumento con ellos sobre la semántica para promover mi perspectiva racista.

A propósito, cuando presentas las historias vergonzosas de otros países, es muy conveniente que te olvidas la vergonzosa historia de los conquistadores españoles y todo el daño que hicieron a otros países, los efectos de que todavía son visibles en algunos lugares.

Además, hablas de propaganda de otras personas, pero debes preguntarte a ti: ¿Cual propaganda estás promocionando? ¿Por qué tienes tanto resentimiento contras los estadounidenses? Probablemente sería demasiado maduro para ti hacer este tipo de reflexión personal, pero te ayudaría a superar tus problemas con racismo.

felix
29/10/2011

Oh, sorry, I forgot, those Indians or Native Americans, however you want to put it, do not really exist, because you trasformed them into Hispanics by Royal Decree!

Viajera
29/10/2011

Hi Carlos,

You make good points. And it’s been nice swapping information with you here. I look forward to visiting Spain one day and learning more about your culture firsthand.

Greetings from Colombia.

felix
29/10/2011

Sure

felix
29/10/2011

Anyway, Tanya and Viajera, if you do ever come to Spain let me know and I will invite you to a nice dinner with candles. You will see that I am much nicer in person.

J.S.V
18/11/2011

La mayoría de la gente que escribe aquí mucho me temo que no tiene ni idea de lo que habla. La mayoría opina por experiencias vividas en días, semanas… España es un destino turístico de primer orden. En relación con el tamaño de su población el primero. Por su clima, su gastronomía, su diversidad y su gente. Por favor. No os permitáis opinar de la gente de un país por experiencias sesgadas de unos días o semanas en un complejo hotelero o en cuallquier caso desde la óptica del turista. Eso, desde luego, me parece de mal gusto y quizás incluso de mala educación

Oscar R
21/11/2011

I´d like to point some regionalism about Spain. I´m from Granada in the south, this town is said to be a town of “Mala Follá”, meaning literally “bad temper”, in older people i would say could be true in a 20%, but, is very characteristic and sticks out a lot; they are the grannies that ignore you in the qeues and the careless old men with snotty faces.

There are many more regional stereotypes in Spain: andalusians in general are ignorant and stupid, madrilians are “Chulos” (this means”cocky”), catalonians are thight and will only speak to you in catalonian, Vascs are brutes, valencianos are quarrelsome, galicians are awkward and it goes on. I guess this is only true in some cases, and I´m sure that is what happens everywhere. Generally the human race is capable of really noble acts and even more horrible deeds. Thats just the way we are, and I would like to see the place where everybody is perfect if somebody knows it please tell e where it is so I can go there. On the other hand it´d be probably boring so i´ll pass.

Carlos
07/12/2011

Stan, would you be so kind as to define “refined” for me? Do you perhaps mean the ‘refined’ English way of drinking one’s head off at weekends in contrast with our nasty habit of having red wine for lunch? Or, the recent ‘refined’ revolts in England in contrast with our hideous peaceful anti-system movement? Perhaps my idea of what ‘refined’ is differs from yours.

“Can anyone be more racist than the English?” Well, I don’t know, but many of them surely do a good job with their “I am holier than thou” rantings and platitudes about other countries, especially southern European ones, and especially the economic press. I’m no specialist, but it is as if they derived some sort of gain from it. The “PiGS” issue is especially scandalous in its unfettered offense.

I agree we have some problems with efficiency and competitiveness, but not on the scale many would like to think and mostly to do with “undeclared” production than with lack of industriousness. Nepotism? Yes, it is a concern. I agree we are more tribal than other societies.

As for corruption and fraud, come and talk to us when you eliminate the fiscal paradise of Gibraltar, the biggest rats nest in the European Continent, a drain to our economy. It seems to me, as well, that posts 20 (Britain) and 30 (Spain) on the 2011Transparency International Index of 178 countries does not legitimate your statement about “Western standards” in his respect.

So, you’ve been to Bilbao and what other parts of Spain? You have a lot of travelling and prejudice-shedding to do before you get close to knowing my country.

Carlos
08/12/2011

Oh, sorry, Stan, I forgot. Yes, you are right: it is this heat again clouding my understanding and making me feel like being passionately rude to someone. I should have born in mind that I was dealing here with a rational, cool man from the north and recognised his superior wisdom, free from irrational interferences (including stereotyping and prejudice, of course). Poor me! please forgive me, for I belong to a race of pathologically overemotional gits, incapable of thinking straight.

Now, seriously, I wish you could stand outside yourself for just one minute and take a good look at what you are saying, its contradictions and its implications…

I agree England is not the issue of this particular thread, but it was you who first introduced it as a benchmark for comparison with Spain. I was not exactly attacking your country, but trying to dismantle your self-righteous, cliched views.

Oh, and please, spare me the hackneyed issue of Spanish colonial rule because it occurred centuries ago, has nothing to do with what I was talking about and does nothing but painfully highlight the culturally inherited nature of your prejudices against us.

When I talked about Gibraltar I did it exclusively to make the point not only that Britain is not free of corruption but that it also contributes to aggravate it internationally. If you ask me, I could not care less whether Gibraltar remains British, is devolved to Spain or becomes the Republic of Llanitosland. I would just like it to cease being a fiscal paradise. I will only add as a matter of curiosity that, from the perspective of a northern Spaniard like me, to hear them talk on TV with such a broad southern Spanish accent and mannerisms saying that they are not Spanish has approximately the same comical effect for us as it would have for you if a group of people speaking with a scouse accent said they want to be recognised as, say, Japanese.

I lived in the UK for nearly a decade and my experience there was great overall, but if there was something that really bugged me it is how deeply entrenched in your culture is the stereotyping and mistrust of other nations, of which I felt a victim as a Spaniard: racism, nordicism, climatic determinism, protestant smugness, ethnocentrism.

And yes, sorry to tell you, but appropriating the right to decide what does or does not constitute rudeness is dire ethnocentrism, a clear superiority complex.

Carlos
09/12/2011

I quote: “Rudeness/politeness surely isn’t the most important thing in this life”. Wrong, we are social animals, and the way we interact with each other, how cooperative/uncooperative, friendly/unfriendly aggressive/accepting we find our social environment can make our life heaven or hell. The thing here is that you fail to recognise that the dimension “politeness/rudeness” is a fully conventional one and that you are measuring my culture through the conventions of another which, sorry to hurt your pride, does not have the exclusive copyright in this respect. Full stop.

No comments on the rest, for now…

Carlos
10/12/2011

—“Carlos, isn’t it OBVIOUS we’re talking about a subjective and relative perception strongly influenced by our experience, culture and upbringing?”

Yes Stan, it is CHRISTAL CLEAR to most people, and I am glad to see you have come round to admitting it openly too. Well done! Now to round it all up nicely, you should go one step further and recognise the limitations of your experience, culture and upbringing so that they do not act as such a strong filter to your judgement.

—“Does that need to be mentioned?”

Yes, Stan, it does. You must avoid sounding categorical, especially if you are judging a whole country and more so if your opinions are accessible to people from that country that may find them irritating. Unless you want to be impolite to them or intentionally provocative, that is… You may think that posting a comment on a blog is a trivial thing, but much of the welfare of nations is based on their reputation, don’t forget that.

—“If you want a non-English opinion on this, therefore much less prejudiced apparently, I suggest you ask all the “moros”, “negros” and “sudacas” living in Spain what they think about Spanish politeness.”

Now, that was a desperate attempt at a punch below the belt… Those terms do exist and are used by some, as Spanish society is not free from undesireable attitudes. But that applies to any other nation, if not go and ask all the “pakies”, “chinks”, “greasy Italians”, “frogs”, “dagos” and “spiks” in your country, to mention just a few of the endearing terms you use in English. For your information, thousands of children from Africa and Asia are adopted every year in Spain. As for the “institutional racism” in Spain, do not make me laugh… Individual racism from someone in a position of power, perhaps…

To conclude, I just want to make clear that my comments are not intended against the British people as a whole, and I apologise if I have offended anyone. I just wish sometimes some of you stopped being so INSULAR at times and got off your high horse. Game over.

F.F
11/12/2011

I’m Spanish and this is so accurate!